How to Solve Illegal Immigration in Five Minutes »
Posted By RickyDawkins 8 months, 1 week ago in Business & FinanceWe know it works because that's how America came into existence. The idea is: all these settlers get together and draft a constitution, vote on it, approve it, and then they give themselves citizenship in this brand new country they just made. They don't even have to go anywhere, they just plop their new nation on top of the already existing one.
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RickyDawkins8 months, 1 week ago
This is not a perspective you hear on television.
You know, we act like the laws that sort immigrants into legal- or illegal-types dropped out of the sky directly from god. Of course not, laws are made and enforced by the dominant group in a society, generally to benefit... themselves! Just like how you can put millions of black people in jail by creating a 'War on Drugs' or terrorize entire nations by inventing a so-called 'War on Terror', you can attack people by making them 'illegal'. You demonize them, you attribute every social ill you can think of to their presence. And what I'm saying is that this is hypocritical because in the case of the United States, the dominant settler group who's acting all bent out of shape over what to do with all these illegal immigrants, they have yet to acknowledge their own status as settlers, their own status as illegal immigrants.
http://www.pinkyshow.org/archives/episodes/0710...
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NoSpinDave8 months, 1 week ago
lol, if that clown is your hero you are in serious need of new people to look up too.
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Bkumm8 months, 1 week ago
It's an interesting read, but the history is poor.
If the author, as the article suggests, wants to call everyone who was not here since humans evolved on the planet "immigrants" than Native Americans also fit that category.
However, that is really beside the point. The point is that nation states have the right to determine who is allowed to enter into their borders. Full stop.
Is there prejudice against illegal immigrants (and to some extent all immigrants), of course there is. Do some profit more than others from illegal immigration? Of course they do. Does it push our sympathy button to see the plight of these people just trying to get a better deal for themselves and their families? Of course it does. Is the U.S. (and its policies and laws) at least partially to blame for this? Of course it is.
But, none of that matters in the face of this fact.
Nation states have the right to regulate their borders.
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Bkumm8 months, 1 week ago
I guess not. LOL>>>
It concerns me that we continue to dredge up things that we can not change (you aren't going to get every person who immigrated here after the aboriginal Americans to leave) in an effort to talk about issues that have nothing to do with those things. These "sympathy buttons" are used to get us talking about something other than the issue at hand, which is whether or not a nation state has the right to regulate its own borders.
It's a lot like when a creationist tells an evolutionist, "Well, if you want to have a monkey in YOUR family tree." It stops being rational and becomes emotional. I KNOW you know what I'm talking about on that issue. We've both had that leveled at us enough! LOL>>>
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RickyDawkins8 months, 1 week ago
"Nation states have the right to regulate their borders."
The point is keeping in mind what it means to be America. America IS the land of immigrants. The land of LIBERTY.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty
(by the way I did not mean to give you that neg.)
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Bkumm8 months, 1 week ago
I know you didn't. No worries.
I realize what you're saying, respect it and to a great extent agree with it, however there are six billion people on the Earth. There is a point where ideology and reality have to meet.
Unfortunately that meeting point happens to be on immigration right now. Personally, I think the meeting point should be on population control and economics, but I don't get to decide these issues. LOL>>>
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Obaku8 months, 1 week ago
Close, but no cigar.
Nations not only have the right to regulate their borders, they have the DUTY, and responsibility, to do so.
This government has not, for decades.
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rdy2rck8 months, 1 week ago
All good points.The white settlers overhwelmed the Indians and drove them to near extinction. I'm very sorry this happened but it's past like it or not.
What's happening now.Just by shear numbers, the Mexicans are taking back what we stole from them in the first place.
But amnesty is no solution.It just makes people more eager to get here because they figure eventually they'll be legal.
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Ratskii8 months, 1 week ago
A couple of points: 1) A lot of the illegals go back and forth. It seems to me we'd save a lot of grief by allowing work permits to those who don't want to immigrate permanently. 2) Our policies towards illegal immigrants is probably not the main thing that determines how many come over here. The move to cheaper countries by the American based companies that set up their factories in Northern Mexico (to avoid taxes and environmental laws) was one of the main things that caused the rise in illegal immigration. The best way to discourage it would be to amend NAFTA and CAFTA so they don't discourage the ability of the poor to make a living South of the border and to invest in Mexico and Central America in such a way that we help the poor to earn a living.
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rdy2rck8 months, 1 week ago
Sorry for not making myself clearer.I was making a half snide comment about what happened in the past.The settlers took land, killed natives and just like slavery as an example it happened, but I can't feel personal guilt for what my ancestors did.
I am not for amnesty. Period.
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RickyDawkins8 months, 1 week ago
The Trail of Tears refers to the forced relocation in 1838 of the Cherokee Native American tribe to the Western United States, which resulted in the deaths of approximately 4,000 Cherokees. In the Cherokee language, the event is called "the Trail Where We Cried". The Cherokees were not the only Native Americans forced to emigrate as a result of the Indian Removal efforts of the United States, and so the phrase, "Trail of Tears", is sometimes used to refer to similar events endured by other Indian peoples. The phrase originated as a description of the forcible removal of the Choctaw nation in 1831.
The Cherokee Trail of Tears resulted from the enforcement of an agreement signed under the provisions of the Indian Removal Act of 1830, which exchanged Native American land in the East for lands west of the Mississippi, but was never accepted by the elected tribal leadership or a majority of the Cherokee people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears
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Redneck8 months, 1 week ago
Ricky you should review your facts from the very article you cite before you comment. 1) Choctaws were relocated in 1831 not Cherokees. They came later in 1838. The Trail of Tears refers to the forced relocation in 1838.
"The Cherokees were not the only Native Americans forced to emigrate as a result of the Indian Removal efforts of the United States, and so the phrase, "Trail of Tears", is sometimes used to refer to similar events endured by other Indian peoples, especially among the Five Civilized Tribes. The phrase originated as a description of the forcible removal of the Choctaw nation in 1831."
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hyperbola8 months, 1 week ago
BKumm: nation states have the right to regulate their borders.
Actually that has only been the practise for just about a century. Prior to WWI you didn't need a passport to go anywhere and stay there if you wished. The world would probably be healthier if that situation were restored.
What this article doesn't mention, but may well be coming, is that nation-states will also regulate who can leave the country and for what purpose. The first starts have already been put in place by the Bush administration.
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Bkumm8 months, 1 week ago
You may not have needed a passport, but nation states have always regulated their borders.
For instance, the movement of tribal groups from the east into Roman territory. Although these groups were strictly entering the territory because they'd been forced out by other groups the Romans did not take kindly to their presence.
Regulation of a nation states borders means more than just passports. Further, while it may not always have been the way it is now, that is the way it is now.
Although I am no fan of the Bush Administration, I do not believe that they are trying to restrict who can leave. I understand that you're talking about the passport restrictions, but those restrictions were for places from where illegal immigration flourished and where there were no restrictions before.
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truthiness8 months, 1 week ago
actually Bkumm, both of my roomates are scientists who do field research around the world. leaving is an arduous process (partly due to equipment, but also just for personal permission) and the must return within three months. this is not negotiable. three months. and we are talking about countries like Costa Rica that have neither immigration nor terrorism issues with us.
just an FYI.
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canadianrancher578 months, 1 week ago
What happened to the American native population maybe could not be called genocide but it was close, as in most cases of genocide not all of the population is in favor of what happens and hopefully sanity prevails. Bkumm makes a point that people may enter the country if done so by the proper procedure but what is happening today is another situation where a group are trying to define who is American at the expense of a visible ethnic group. I feel that the artical is correct in saying that the problem of illegal imigrants goes a little futher than just that. For some reason society always seems to need a scapegoat, the present one seems to come from south of your borders. Just my opinion could be wrong.
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Redneck8 months, 1 week ago
The "article" is bogus. 1) No one "stole" anything from Mexcians or Mexico. Texans, Anglos, those of direct Spanish descent and Mexican (mixed blood) alike rebelled against those who were ruling Mexico as a dictatorhsip at the time. 2) some territory was lost in the Spanish-American war but no one stole it from anyone. It was a settlement of the war.
Also, USA has the right to regulate its borders and exclude anyone whom it does not wish to enter regardless of history. Many people enter merely to take advantage of the benefits with plans to return to Mexico when they please. It is not an attack against a particular race or group. It is against illegal aliens who have broken out laws to enter our country and use our system for their own selfish ends.
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canadianrancher578 months, 1 week ago
Redneck- I will agree that there is a problem with illegal immigrants coming into your country, but the lack of action by politicians is what concerns me, if they took action and reduced the flow of illegals it would be welcomed by most Americans,but by doing nothing then some of the ills in the economy can be blamed on these people. If the number of illegals was cut to zero and employment didn't improve who would have to shoulder the blame, same goes for the social progams that are being overloaded.
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NelsonR8 months, 1 week ago
Is there any problem with any human getting in line and entering legally?
Rules are rules, laws are laws and who has the right, being an outsider to change what is?
Cheap labor and lazy Americans change nothing regarding the law. Must add, maybe that's why I see more obese Americans year in and year out, to GD lazy to do anything for themselves while needing a peon to do their work.
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bluetexasvalley8 months, 1 week ago
In the 70s it was estimated that there were approximately 10,000 illegal aliens in the U.S. If you look at that in proportion to the then population, and compare that to the present, there is actually LESS of a proportion of illegals here now. So all this talk of an "invasion" is not well-founded. More fear talk. And how can it be bad for our nation to be bilingual? Being bilingual is about more than just words. It gives you an additional perspective, because your thoughts are in the abstract. It opens up your mind. Guess you'd rather keep it closed, huh?
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tehranchik8 months, 1 week ago
Learning to speak another language like lots of the rest of the world---how degrading! (sarcasm)
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RedstateLib8 months, 1 week ago
If you want to deport 12 million illegals you need to put your money where your mouth is. Stop whining about tax cuts and border security, take you pick. Haven't you heard "nothing in life is free" that includes roads, bridges, hospitals and the enforcement of laws. Nothing makes me crazier than those who scream about paying taxes then rant about border security and you will notice they are "almost" always the exact same people.
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Redneck8 months, 1 week ago
Make it unprofitable to hire an illegal alien. Instant background checks limit the purchase of guns. Use the same system to limit issuing driver's licenses or hiring a new employee. No wages equals no reason to remain equals self-deportation.
Second, hire people to do work no "illegal alien will do"!! Reward bountyhunters who report illegals. Use the money illegals are stealing from hospitals, school systems, welfare, etc. to pay them. These two approaches will work.
Many are beginning to "self-deport" due to Bush's new crackdown on illegals at places of employment.
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MajJohn8 months, 1 week ago
The only ones who mention deportation are Democrats while accusing the Republicans of having deportation as a talking point. It's like calling someone stupid for claiming the moon is cube shaped.
Provide no jobs or welfare or drivers license to those not legally here and they'll return on their own. Couple this with enforcement and border control. Add this to a legal worker program and you've solved the problem. I'll gladly pay for border security but not for amnesty and welfare for those who break our laws.
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Redneck8 months, 1 week ago
Teddy Roosevelt 1907
Quote: In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace or origin. But this is predicted upon the person's becoming in every facet an American and nothing but an American... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
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kedirian8 months, 1 week ago
"They don't even have to go anywhere, they just plop their new nation on top of the already existing one"...which they are already doing in some communities along the border!
The analogy is misplaced, though. What if your neighbor freely wanders in and out of your house, helps himself to all its amenities, has his kids jump the fence between neighbors, and - oops! oldest daughter being pregnant, she falls and trips into your yard, all the ensuing commotion resulting in her giving premature birth to a baby, which now is automatically part of YOUR family.
AND THEN YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT WHOEVER IS IN YOUR HOUSE....
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RickyDawkins8 months, 1 week ago
As one of the commenter was saying above, the issue is complex. It crosses political and social lines. Immigration affects the economy (and vice versa). There are global aspects, like availabilty of resources and population growth. More questions than answers unfortunately...
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MightyMouth8 months, 1 week ago
HELLLOOOOOO WHAT PART OF "ILLEGAL" DON'T YOU WETBACKS UNDERSTAND?
Or maybe I need to say it in Mexicaneze.
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KYRed8 months, 1 week ago
These illegal Mexicanimmigrants aren't taking back the land they once occupied. They are from Mexico. They didn't live here before in their life and they shouldn't come here now without following the laws of the U.S.
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VMan8 months, 1 week ago
Hey Mealy Mouth, what part of "illegal" don't the traitorous business owners who have lured immigrants here because they don't want to pay American citizens a decent wage understand? Maybe I need to say it in got my nose too far up a greedy A hole ease.
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Obaku8 months, 1 week ago
Settle down now y'all.
The government of the United States, and the government of Mexico, have utterly failed to even have a policy regarding work and travel between the two countries. And the citizens of both countries have merely tolerated this failure, and exploited it to their personal advantage whenever they saw the opportunity.
Welcome to Earth - beware of the humans!
There would be no "illegal aliens" if there was an appropriate system to document those who cross the border in order to work. And enforcement of that system. This didn't start yesterday. Marijuana laws were passed for the purpose of deporting Mexicans from the Southwest during the depression.
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naunny8 months, 1 week ago
I get sick every time I hear about illegals!! They are people just like every body else. We say we are not raciest but yet we treat others like they don't belong. This is to be a FREE country, it don't say only FREE for the americans. It's all about money, we send our jobs to other countries because it is cheaper, the U.S. don't care that the other countries are killing them selves off due to not having the E.P.A. Kids have to live in filth because of the U.S. but people want to think they are better than any 1 else. If the truth was known, the U.S. has stolen property from all over the country, but thats supose to be ok because it's the U.S. ( WHAT EVER! ) They steal from their own people by raising gas, food, taxes, they tell you that you can't get disability even though you are dieing of cancer! But thats ok because it's the U.S. I would like to know when did GOD put the U.S. in charge of his people!! I belive it says WE are all god's children, not just the americans!!!
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Redneck8 months, 1 week ago
"Illegal" definition: in the case of citizens of other countries it is "one who enters the US by passing the legal process in place for them to enter." In other words "law breakers", criminals, scofflaws, etc. They are people who disobey law.
No one is FREE to break the law. And AMERICAN is a legal status not a race.
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coolrayfruge8 months, 1 week ago
The Mexican Mafia has declaired war.
Their coming to this country and threatening our Freedom and Liberty's.
By terrorizing the people with acts of violence and helping our own corrupt system to create a need for a police state.
The answer is to make Mexico part of the US.
Make them pay taxes and live by our laws like the rest of us do.
Putting us a border fence stretching across from California to Texas is more costley.
Make these people a solution not a burden on the American people.
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Redneck8 months, 1 week ago
No! That is what the liberals want. It would absolutely destroy our culture and way of life.
And Mexicans do not want to be citizens of the USA nor do they want us to make them part of the USA. The ruling families in Mexico (ones who control most of the wealth and industry) want it the way it is.
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Cityslicker8 months, 1 week ago
How is it anyone came to own the land we call America ?
Whom was it purchased from , Spain , for how much ?
And why does a Government say they own it and we just lease the land form them in the form of taxes ?
If Americans flocked to Mexico , took over their jobs and used their Governmental System to profit , would they put up with it ?
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truthiness8 months, 1 week ago
there are so many issues tied together here that really shouldn't be.
the issue of languages is a false one. we should be multilingual. considering the inevitability of the global market, or even the world access of the internet for the individual, if we want our children to be able to compete the are going to need literacy in English, Spanish, Hindi, and Chinese (Swiss children learn 4 lang. why cant ours?)
the jobs issue is also false. it is said that jobs are being taken away from americans, yet how many people are on welfare? doesn't this seem incongruous?
A nation is defined by its culture and its borders. a culture can be (and in our case has been) multifaceted, so the issue of their assimilation is not real.
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truthiness8 months, 1 week ago
However, if our borders are porous then we are not sovereign. The reason for this is that the social contract has a government supported by the people to care for the peoples needs (the definition of those needs is another debate) when people come and go without contributing as citizens, and legal immigrants, do to the nation yet use its resources as we do... this creates a negative flow on our resources. And this, not xenophobia, is the problem with illegal immigration in the modern world.
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Redneck8 months, 1 week ago
The world is learning English. It is the language of trade. The global market has adjusted from French to English. Yours is the false view. Culture is a reflection of the language spoken.
Language has a great impact on industry. German and English are in most respects precise languages aiding mechanics and science in precision. Some languages are not precise and hinder industry.
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truthiness8 months, 1 week ago
some languages are better for technology others are better for the arts. all reflect the cultures. our culture is a tapestry.. so too should the language.
further, the more you study, the stronger your brain.
and, since language tells one so much about another culture, it is good to study another laguage so as to understand that culture. esp. if it is a culture you interact with often.
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